In my last update I talked about how the Lord has really been showing me the importance of relationship within the body. More than just the importance, but the essential necessity of it!
While praying a couple of months ago the Lord gave me a little teaching vision to help me understand this. Here it is and my interpretation of it:
I saw an easel with a painting on it. I couldn’t see what was actually on the painting but there were people gathered around staring at it. All of the sudden one person would pop up and say “I see Red, Blue and Green…”. Another person would shoot up and say, “I see Yellow, Pink and Purple”. And another person stood up and said, “I see Brown, Aqua, and Orange”. Then it ended.
After this the Lord started to unpack the interpretation. The painting is representative of the Kingdom of God. The people surrounding the painting are the people of God. Each person could see the painting (the Kingdom) but every person saw different colors in the painting. While one person saw red, green and blue, another person saw yellow, pink and purple. All of these colors were in the painting but not one single person could see all the colors. But, if all the people sat down and shared what they saw, then, AND ONLY THEN, would they get a complete picture of what the painting represented.
This is what the Kingdom of God is like. Every person has a certain spectrum that they can see in the Kingdom of God, but not one person can see it all. It’s only when we come together and each of us share what we see that we actually get an idea of what the Kingdom of God actually looks like.
This isn’t something specific to preachers, teachers, or pastors, this is everybody. Every single person has a piece of the Kingdom of God planted inside of them and for us to not engage with these people is missing out on a certain fruit of God. And for us to think that the “colors” we see are the only colors in the painting is selling not only God short, but ourselves.
Our church culture works against this idea. We have rows and rows of people all facing one man. There is no discussing or sharing, it’s all listening, one way. Somehow we need to create an environment where our gathering is conversational instead of dictatorial. I personally don’t think it’s possible to convert what we currently have to this model…because it’s not a model at all. The model is life and relational. It’s inviting people over to just talk and share. Not a bible study or even a structured meeting, but simply being friends and doing life together.
A great new friend I met here in Oklahoma City has a small house church gathering that he meets with on Tuesday nights, his name is Tony Jenkins (Diane who is seen commenting here is a part of that group as well). But he has made a huge impact on how I view “church” and christian living. He’s said something that I’ve mentioned before but I want to bring it out in fullness here. He says, “Sermons don’t disciple people, people disciple people.”
For us to think that our current church model is successful at discipling people is ridiculous. We don’t need sermons about money, marriage, and relationship. We need to be able to discuss them with people, and share our complicated life with them and in that process we will disciple and be discipled. Why does someone that is going through a horrible marriage crisis need to sit through a 45 minute sermon on angels? That person needs someone to talk to about their problems, and “church” isn’t conducive to it.
Unfortunately relationships are hard. It’s hard to be honest with people. I think we’re so enthralled with reality TV because it creates an artificial relationship. We get to know someone intimately without ourselves being known. It’s safer that way. I’ve realized just recently how deceptive I am in relationships, not because I want to lie or be deceitful, but because I have such a fear of shame that won’t allow me to share the slightest bit of intimate opinions. I’m working very hard on this and I’ve been in this darkness for so long that I’m not even honest to myself. I’m so codependent that it’s kept me away from genuine relationship.
What’s the answer? I think it’s simply talking to people and developing relationships on any level…not everybody has to be best friends, we just need to get to know each other. This isn’t something you can program or organize. Just gather around some food and talk about life. God is in all things and His message speaks loudly from even the rocks, nothing will have to be forced or structured because the Kingdom is always available and ready. Life has enough teaching opportunities that we wouldn’t have to hear another sermon again :-).
I don’t normally do this and discuss things in a negative manner towards other preachers. But I was about to post up some audio on Kingdom financial issues when it comes to giving, tithing, receiving, etc. As I was going to do this I heard a new message from Todd Bentley’s Podcast and was a little disheartened.
I hope it comes across that it’s not Todd that I’m trying to “come against” but this style of ministry that I thought I left when I removed myself from the Word Of Faith teachings. Todd does have responsibility because he is the one speaking here, and I have submitted this link to his ministry so that he would have a chance to see it and respond if he feels it’s at all necessary. But my main purpose for doing this is to help the believers not fall for this kind of false doctrine from anybody, Todd was just the person I heard doing it last so I’m just using him as an example. And I want to start a discussion with you about giving and issues of money as it relates to the Kingdom.
I don’t want to step out of line and I don’t know if this is the "right" thing to do or the way to do it. So I think we should talk about that too. Should we call this kind of stuff out, or just let it slide, or is there something in between that is suitable?
So many people are huckstered into giving to a ministry because they feel guilty, ashamed, or that they may miss out on an opportunity to receive blessing (or “anointing”), or sometimes it’s just purely out of the possibility of getting that return payment from God that they’re promised from the preacher.
This audio is from a message I heard last week on Todd Bentley’s podcast, and to be honest it literally made me feel sick. I’m not a huge follower of Todd Bentley’s ministry but I do have respect for his work and preaching of the gospel. I’ve listened to about 10 or more of his messages over time, so maybe I’m not qualified to speak on this. But, regardless, this just made me sit back and tilt my head.
My initial thoughts were, “I thought I was done with this kind of garbage when I stopped listening to Word of Faith guys…” When I was introduced to the prophetic movement I was relieved to know that there was a genuine strand of humilty and authenticity out there. It’s been a real long time since I’ve heard anything like this from someone I liked.
I debated with myself whether I should put this up or not because I didn’t want to be one of those guys that just pointed out the flaws and bad doctrine of other people. But after seeking a bit of council I’ve decided it could be a good thing and we could possibly talk about stuff like this openly…and from both sides of the coin. I know Todd Bentley is a pretty popular preacher so I’m sure some people might not like this post. But I would encourage everybody that has an opinion to post it. Maybe I’m wrong in thinking this is against the principles of the gospel. If I am, I want to know and I’m willing to be corrected. But from my perspective, this may help set some people free from the guilt and shame that some preachers use to get worldly wealth.
Here are some of my personal notes regarding this teaching with the minute and second placing in the audio so you can reference it (linked below the notes):
- 5:30 Todd opens this message with a trance he was involved in. In it he sees this “angel of finance” and then he’s taken up to heaven and see’s himself in a “treasure room.” In this treasure room he sees himself stuffing his pockets with gold coins and then he asks the Lord “What am I doing?”, and the Lord responds “You’re getting the offering”. It’s odd that in this trance Todd had, he was stuffing these gold coins (the offering) in his pockets. And just a few minutes later in the audio, it’s actually happening to him during the message [starting at 10:50]. It seems that people are actually coming up and putting money into his pockets. He’s actually, personally, literally, GETTING the offering.
- 6:32 Todd mentions something he calls “Sowing in the glory”, where he says that in a time of anointing, that’s when you want to sow…into that anointing. And he says “That’s what I want - I want that” [Can’t buy the anointing, *BUT* I’m sowing into that." This is crazy to me! To think that our financial giving has any impact on the Lord when it comes to His presence! The anointing is the Holy Spirit of God, it’s not some magic power, it’s simply the very presence of God and to think that a little piece of paper with some man’s face on it will influence God into giving us His presence is horrible. Maybe this is a good practice for Todd, it’s never a bad idea to give, regardless of the time or the “anointing”, but to suggest this as a practice to the fold is sloppy. At the VERY minimum it puts it into the mind of believers that aren’t strong enough in their walk that money is somehow related to the presence of God. Todd knows this is what it sounds like because he mentions it in the middle. What’s the “but” for? But what? Can’t buy the presence of God…but what?? Please, don’t stop, exactly how does any amount of paper of any value somehow trump or get added to the very blood of Jesus….but what??!
- 7:40 He keeps going and again says, “You can’t buy the anointing, BUT…"“. And then says in regards to a story where he is giving to another minister that he was going to, “Sow it into the man…because there’s something in the man that I WANT”. “I don’t give for money, I want the glory”, “I’m reaping a 100 fold of glory realm”
Even though he says “but”, he’s still insinuating that somehow a financial gift to another minister will release the presence of God into our lives. What it really sounds like is that he’s setting up the people to give to him…and that’s exactly what happens. To me, and I may be wrong, but it’s as if he’s telling us this story of how he did something so we would feel comfortable or find some benefit in doing the same to him.
He then mentions that he received a sign of the impartation. God said in regards to gold dust appearing that it was “A sign that you received an impartation…that it showed up.” So apparently we’re getting the success that the transaction went through. We know that we shouldn’t offer up lambs, sheep and goats anymore on top of the altar of God, but a few dollars is an acceptable transaction.
- 9:15 Now Todd begins to speak of another meeting previous to this one and mentions that during the message, “All of the sudden people got up.” and started to give, that there was “No official call for offering." and that one man gave “3 times over the course of the evening.” He then goes on to say that “Everybody was getting money.” It would’ve been great if this meant all the saints were giving to each other, one in abundance was giving to another in lack so that nobody was without…but unfortunately I have the feeling that instead of the giving being horizontal, it was from the seats to the pulpit and back.
- 10:50 Then, if nothing but a lack of taste, it seems that a person is coming up trying to give to Todd and he says, “Use this pocket”. Is this really a demonstration of the Kingdom of God? Do we really expect that when Todd sits down here that Jesus gives him a high five and says “I really liked the pocket part, that was good.” I mean, come on…it’s completely embarassing to see such a highly honored man resort to such a tacky level. But this is part of the vision where Todd saw himself stuff the offering in his pocket. He’s literally getting the offering. Imagine that.
- 11:50 Here Todd gives a story of an unbeliever getting born again during a meeting where gold starts to show up. If anything was good out of all this, it would’ve been this.
- 12:14 And again he says, “I’ve got back pockets too.” Still, I’m just imagining Jesus standing in the streets of Capernaum saying “Hey don’t worry, my friends have money bags too”. And if we don’t picture Jesus doing this, why would we do it and let other ministers get away with it?
- 13:55 Now Todd begins to give instructions and a plea to give saying, “People are giving already”, “You may end up giving 2 or 3 times”. And then he says, “The tithe doesn’t bring us into the blessing.” and suggests that maybe we’ve been “Tithing for years but we’re still not blessed.” and insinuates that it’s because we’re stuck at giving our tithe and not stretching to give that offering.
What’s our blessing? Is it a financial gain or is it the freedom and access to live in the Kingdom of God through Jesus’ death and ressurection? Our blessings aren’t given in porportion to our tithe or our offering…it started with God and it ends with God, there is nothing we can give to put God in debt to us.
- 14:50 Now Todd references Acts where there was a “Culture of giving and revival…nor was there anyone AMONG Them who lacked”. This again is not at all what’s going on here. From what I could tell, and I could be wrong and would love to be corrected, but this wasn’t horizontal giving among the saints, it was from the believers to one man/ministry. Instead wouldn’t it be great if we found out the needs of the body and instead of giving our resources to fund programs and salaries that we actually helped the body when it lacked. I’m sure there were people in that meeting that needed help financially, wouldn’t it have been awesome if all the believer’s needs were met before giving to the ministry?
- 15:00 Here again Todd is now instructing the people to “Consider above and beyond your tithe an offering, and sow into the midst of this glory realm…there’s something happening today.” To me, it seems that he simply sets up the people with these stories and experiences only to give them a reference when it’s time to give to him. If that’s not what it is, that’s exactly what it sounds like to everybody else…the only people who buy (pardon the pun) into it are the ones that actually believe that they can purchase the Kingdom of God.
- 15:28 Now Todd get’s into classic TBN mode, “It may be that $1000 seed that you need to sow this morning. It may be that $500 seed that you need to sow this morning.” “Go above and beyond your tithe.”
- 15:53 More…“I’m doing the offering right in the midst of my message and at any moment during the message you want to keep giving, you just keep coming…I’ve got lots more pockets.
- 16:08 Blah, blah blah…“I’m just telling you right now that God wants to bring a realm of financial breakthrough and blessing here in this place, in this church”
- 16:30 Now the classic…“We can take credit card, but don’t be empty handed. I think this is a realm in which you need to get involved, somewhere or another, you need to make a demand on heaven…” To think that any man of God would instruct the children of God to borrow from the world and go into debt to give into God’s Kingdom is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Again, I heard this all the time in the Word of Faith camp, and I still hear it other places but it just drives me through the roof. PEOPLE OF GOD, please don’t fall for this. It’s like God telling the people of Israel to go back into Egypt and ask the Pharaoh if they could borrow some money to give towards the construction of the gold cherubim that sit on top of the ark of the covenant because they ran out of gold. It’s not necessary or even sane to think God would want us to go into debt to give any kind of gift to Him. We’ve stepped out of bondage into freedom, why would we want to go back?
- 17:15 Again with the pockets… “This pocket here”
- 17:30 “We’ve got the treasure room open this morning. We’re not just receiving an offering right now. All morning is an offering. The treasure room is open and you’re just sowing, and giving, go above and beyond, let’s give radically” “There’s something of God’s glory being released right now in the realm of finances and giving, we need to get involved.”
- 18:08 More suggestions in hearing God for the giving opportunity..“Be open to God speaking to you a second time and say ‘I want you to sow again’", “That one man gave 3 times, according to what the Spirit of God told him, $300,000 the next day, he said ‘This stuff works’, it showed up out of nowhere.”
- 19:20 “Let’s keep the baskets here because I want people to just give and give and give again. And just have that opportunity to bring your….”
HERE IS THE ACTUAL AUDIO Download MP3
You can listen to the full message on Todd Bentley’s podcast, go to http://www.freshfire.ca for more info
Why doesn’t Acts 8:18-23 come up to mind here??
18 When Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given when the apostles placed their hands upon people’s heads, he offered money to buy this power. 19 "Let me have this power, too," he exclaimed, "so that when I lay my hands on people, they will receive the Holy Spirit!"
20 But Peter replied, "May your money perish with you for thinking God’s gift can be bought! 21 You can have no part in this, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Turn from your wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive your evil thoughts, 23 for I can see that you are full of bitterness and held captive by sin."
How is what Todd was doing and suggestion any differen than what Simon was rebuked for?
Todd mentions a Spirit of supernatural giving. You know what I think would’ve been supernatural giving? If out of nowhere and without suggesting, the people of God would start fulfilling the lack within the body of Christ.
I would love for a preacher to practice what he preaches and instead of trying to convince the people to stretch there faith and give and place a demand on heaven that instead, they themselves would stretch their faith and place a demand on heaven by NOT asking for an offering. THAT would be faith…to really trust God that He could move on the people of God to give to the ministers of the Gospel without suggestion.
Listen people, we have to stop falling for this junk. If we didn’t buy into it, it wouldn’t be happening. Unfortunately this has been going on for years and years even before Jesus’ day, and I’m sure it won’t stop until it’s all said and done.
Let’s take this back to Christianity 101. If we want to give financially to God, how do we do it? Well, here’s one way…remember the story of the goats and sheep? When Jesus said “when I was hungry, you fed me. When I was thirsty you gave me drink.” and the people said, when did we do this? What was His response? “When you did it to the least of these, you did it unto me.” Wouldn’t it stand to reason then if we wanted to REALLY give to God that we would find the “least of these”? This is what Jesus was talking about in the parable of the unfaithful steward in Luke 16:1-18, this is why Jesus says that the children of this world are wiser than the children of light.
I’m just really dissapointed to hear this from Todd Bentley. It sound’s no different than the horrid mess coming out of the mouth of people like Mike Murdock, we don’t fall for it from him (at least I hope not, although he’s still on TV so I guess it’s still working on some), why should we with someone even of the stature of Todd Bentley
Originally, before I even heard this message, I was going to put up these messages from a relatively unknown minister of the Gospel, Gary Carpenter. Ironically enough he ministers out of the Mecca of the Word of Faith message in Tulsa, Oklahoma. His message on finances and the Kingdom of God is something I’ve never heard anywhere else, it will truly, truly set you free. After listening to Todd’s message above, please listen to a few of these short mini-messages , you’ll probably laugh out loud at the simplicity of it all:
Gary Carpenter Short Money Teaching #1 (Stream) Download
Gary Carpenter Short Money Teaching #2 Download
Gary Carpenter Short Money Teaching #3 Download
Gary Carpenter Short Money Teaching #4 Download
For more of Gary Carpenter’s mesages about Kingdom Finances, which I highly recommend, go here:
http://www.garycarpenter.org/KingdomFinances.html
Now seriously, I would love to open up a discussion on these things. Was Todd out of line? Am I? What should our response be if any? This is so prevelant in the church these days, I would love to just have some real honest discussion on the matter.
Feel free…and I apologize if I’ve offended anyone, it’s not my intent, I just want people to freely live in the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 17:25b-26: "What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? 26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free."
We started this “journey” in October of 2005. Here it is November of 2007 and we’re moving right along nicely.
I haven’t written a post or an update in forever (I know it’s been 10 months since I’ve written a personal update) so I think now is a good time to bring everybody that is interested up to speed with what’s gone on this year and what I’m doing.
First of all. In March we took our first trip to visit a friend of mine Steve Youngblood in Kirksville, Missouri. It was going to be our first stop of a summer long trip to Missouri, Ohio, Tennessee and Georgia. In the fall of 06 when we got rid of our house we bounced around a bit between in-laws until the trailer was finished and until the winter season ended. I had never done anything with an RV so I didn’t want our first trip to be in the middle of winter!
We ended up staying with Joeleen’s father in Oklahoma City for quite a while. They were nice enoug to let all 3 of us stay in their house with them. It was great. After the cold broke a bit we decided to go.
Somewhere between Oklahoma City and Kirksville Missouri.
When we got to the small town of Kirksville it was pretty good weather, but then all of the sudden it snowed on us!! Go figure. It wasn’t too bad really. It’s amazing how much space you can really live on. One thing I realized….no matter how big your house is, you can only be in one room at a time…why not just have 1 room that is your whole house!! Thus, the trailer was a great idea :-)!
All in all we had a great time with the Youngblood’s and friends in Kirksville. Steve is an awesome guy to talk to and he has a lot of wisdom to offer a young “know-it-all” like me!
We were doing fine and dandy in Kirksville, just the 3 of us packed in the trailer (it was so much fun!), then we found out there was 4! We found out Joeleen was pregnant!! What a crazy twist of events! We laughed the whole time.
So, that’s a little bit why I’ve been a little absent from the site. Joeleen is due this month and we’re looking forward to having another little boy running around with us soon (we’re naming him Luke).
So I didn’t really have any idea what we were going to do. We gave away everything we had and we were homeless (although we did have the trailer). It was a little confusing that this would happen immediately, but it’s turned out to be such an awesome blessing.
We stopped by Branson on the way back to Oklahoma City and when we got here Joeleen started to get really bad morning sickness (that lasted all day long). We didn’t think living in the trailer was the best decision at this point so we decided to get an apartment and post up here in Oklahoma City until the baby comes.
So here we sit, in a 1 bedroom apartment in Oklahoma City waiting for our new family member to arrive. At first I was a little discouraged. I was really tied to the whole RV/travelling thing. It was actually a hit to my pride because I wasn’t doing what I had planned. Here’s something I’ve learned…just go, flow with God and wait for the surprises!
Being here in Oklahoma City has been such an unbelievable blessing. And it’s not because of the city, we can’t stand the actual city of Oklahoma City, but we love the people we’ve met. I’ve had such a priveledge to make some lifelong friends here. I now see why this has happened. I’ve learned this summer that the Kingdom of God is all about relationship. Relationship with God and with other people. It’s so simple. I’ve met many people here with like minds and some with not so like minds, and the relationships are so awesome regardless!
I now know a little bit more of what I’m doing and going to be doing. At first I thought we would go from town to town preaching in whatever way I could. Stay for a few weeks and then jet out of town. Now I think it’s going to be more of a longer short-term than I thought. If I were to guess anything (which I don’t do anymore because of the wild turn of events this year) I think we’ll be traveling at a little slower pace and staying a little longer at each place. We are talking about leaving Oklahoma City sometime after little Luke is about 6 months old. This means we would’ve been in Oklahoma Ciy for over a year!! Definitely not what I had in mind in the beginning. But I think I understand why. It’s all about building relationships and growing with people through things.
I’ve never posted the “vision” God gave me in 2005 that I’m trying to pursue with all of this, I’ll try to get it up in a few days. But I’m beginning to see it all come together more clearly.
So, we’re currently in Oklahoma City. I’ve hooked up with a bunch of little ministries out here and I’ve learned not to tie myself to any organization or function, but to people and relationships. It seems that the church these days has this competitive mindset of “building ministry” that is completely counterproductive to the Kingdom. Not being “committed” to a single organization or ministry has enabled me to be committed more to people and relationship. I’ve met and worked with Baptists,Prophetic,Non-Denominational, a Deliverance Ministry and a few small house churches and it’s all been beautiful.
My favorite thing to do these days is meet people and talk. I’ve learned to appreciate all types of personalities and I’ve learned to not be so tunelled in my vision. I’ve relaxed and allowed many different people in my life.
So I guess that’s a bit of an update. I haven’t gone out preaching in a few weeks because right now I’m preparing for the new addition and trying to help my wife as much as possible. My marriage counseller has given me the best advice I’ve heard on ministry and marriage. He says “Your wife is not only your wife, she’s a part of your church/ministry so she get’s twice the amount of attention than everybody else.” So that’s what I’ve been doing. And while doing this, God is doing some deep inner healing work in me, showing me some things I’ve needed to deal with for years and years. Hopefully I’ll be sharing some of it soon.
In the meantime, don’t think I’ve fallen off the scene. God has taught me so much this summer I can’t wait to share it all. I have so many articles to write it’s not even funny. So I’ll be working on those. Also, for those of you that listen to the David Hogan audio, I’m going to try to get more audio up in a timely consistant flow. I also have about 15 never before heard messages from him during the 94-95 years. I’m really excited to share those with you!
So, if you’ve read this far. Thanks for sticking in there with me. I’m going to try to post more regular and restructure the site a bit to help it navigate better. In the meantime, keep commenting on posts and sending me emails, I get so encouraged reading them.
Thanks for all your support!
Paul & Joeleen
